Pegjs: Project maintenance and health

I despair that I have to fork this library, meaning none of the existing consumers will ever get help, and one of the most important libraries on the internet has died

RIP

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:59 AM John Haugeland notifications@github.com
wrote:

I despair that I have to fork this library, meaning none of the existing
consumers will ever get help, and one of the most important libraries on
the internet has died

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I used this library 5 years ago when I still learning to code JS. I made a language that render to HTML that is more expressive than any Markdown dialets I knew. Today, I reconsidered that language to be further evolved, but to find out this library is not as healthy as I'd expected. Just feel sad.

My company uses this package as well and very much like to see the ES module feature and the TypeScript language feature released soon.

If @futagoza can't maintain this package anymore, he should let somebody else take over.

I’m pretty sure PEG.js community shares the concerns expressed above and would appreciate an honest answer.

More than two months, and still no answer?

It looks to me like @futagoza has fallen: all activity on the various communities his linked homepage links to stop at about the same time. Sad.

you can still see activity in the last seven days on side channels

I've reached out over e-mail to see if @futagoza could use some help with community management. I think it would be best if we could find some folks who are interested in doing maintenance releases on v0.10 and a few folks to work towards v0.11.

Please remember to be kind and let's all do what we can to help out. If anyone has other ways to get in touch, please take some time to reach out and let's see if we can lift the burden and work together.

This request to @futagoza for community help has beed raised may times, but we got no response on that matter.
We can only assume this project as abandoned, and together decide on a fork to work from there.

I got a response to e-mail. I'll follow up as soon as I have more info to share.

We shouldn't release 0.10. It's been put onto really weird isolated tools, the development methodology has been changed to something bizarre and niche, it's been moved onto failing build systems, &c.

We really need to go back to 0.9 and cherry pick PRs in their original state, and keep David's original clean system. We can't let Futagoza skip versions for three years because he's created a mess, then hold out for someone who's willing to keep his approach and try to release it

This needs to be turned into a standard node system now. It's needed it for years and all the active users have been asking for this forever

@StoneCypher I think you may have missed something or it may just be a typo - we already have a 0.10 release. So you meant the 0.11 release?

oh, my mistake, 0.10.0 is david's 4 year old release, you're right

@tilgovi Any news to share?

In general: is there another parser library anyone can recommend?

https://tomassetti.me/parsing-in-javascript/

Frankly none of those are usable.

None of those except canopy and ohm have an in-browser version

Waxeye slows down dramatically under even light use, as does apg

Jison's grammars are a puzzle from Vulcan, set to drive any human that isn't Lex Luthor stark raving

ANTLR is like eating broken glass that is somehow also bees

Nearly is fun and interesting and I just cannot get the promises that Early parses give. I recognize that I should be able to. I've been trying for years.

Ohm is super powerful and fun and an entirely different way of looking at the problem and not a reasonable substitute. It's like recommending a replacement of lisp with prolog. Peg and Ohm only just barely technically apply to the same problem domains. It's almost guaranteed that at least one of them will be a bad fit.

Bennu is buggy and produces incorrect results.

Parsimmon is interesting and powerful but I don't enjoy parser combinators and it's pretty verbose.

Par.js took the first ten lines of my PEG and turned them into 200 lines of code. Ouch

Chervotain made them 1900 lines. I actually wrote a peg to translate my peg to Chervotain. Admittedly, it's blazing fast, but the last thing I want to do is transcompile a grammar, and the second to last thing I want to do is maintain Chervotain. Even the XML guys would call this verbose.

The reason PEG has persisted despite rotting on the vine half a decade is that nothing currently alive can possibly replace it.

I initially got a very thoughtful response when I reached out over e-mail. I suggested ways I could help the community get started maintaining a 0.10.x branch and offered to work on reviewing and managing contributors. It's now been weeks since I last received a response.

Ya'll i think it's time we stop grumbling in the issue tracker here. I also want to see the project move forward but Maintainers don't owe us anything. The better approach would be for someone to fork and maintain in the way they feel is best. We need to show up or move on though, there isn't much value in grumbling about other's free work. Clearly they don't have the time, energy, or desire to keep the project moving, and that's fine!

i'd be all for a new maintained fork under fresh administration -- it should be called POG.js
am i right fellow kids?

I also want to see the project move forward but Maintainers don't owe us anything. The better approach would be for someone to fork and maintain in the way they feel is best.

Normally I'd agree, but in this case the request is coming from the original author of PEG.js who handed over maintainer rights to someone who offered to step up and has now seemingly abandoned the project, leaving everyone else in limbo. It's fine for the new maintainer to say "actually, this wasn't a good project for me, someone else have a go", but instead it's just silence. If I were @dmajda I'd be pretty upset to be honest.

If I were @dmajda I'd be pretty upset to be honest.

I’m not really upset, but I regret not doing two things:

1. Not waiting longer before handing PEG.js over to a new maintainer. Maybe I should have waited for multiple candidates to appear and choose between them, require contributions first, or something similar.

2. Not keeping the “keys” to the project (access to PEG.js website, GitHub, and npm package).

Any of these may have prevented the current situation. Unfortunately, this is obvious only in retrospect.

Anyway, it’s quite clear from his non-reaction that @futagoza is not interested in PEG.js anymore. I didn’t watch the JavaScript parser generator space in the last few years so I don’t know whether a good replacement of PEG.js exists. But if not, I would welcome if someone sufficiently interested and motivated picked up PEG.js code and continued development under a new name. I believe this would be the best course at this point. The only issue to decide is whether to continue from the current state or from the state before changes made by @futagoza.

I think that changing the name is a good idea in order to prevent confusion, at least if the original website and repo is still up. Also, it is possible that multiple people will appear, each wanting to take PEG.js in a different direction. In such case, it would be unfortunate to have “Joe’s PEG.js fork”, “John’s PEG.js fork”, etc.

I feel sorry for this situation. If I ever do an open source project again and end up handing it over to someone, I will definitely do it differently.

Thanks @dmajda for your support.

I reached out to @futagoza a few days ago via email but received no response, and I see that they have been active on github since them so I think it's fair to say that they are completely ignoring this issue.

I have forked the project to https://github.com/codemix/pegjs and reverted to the last commit before @futagoza took over, updating dependencies so that they work on newer versions of node but otherwise keeping changes to a minimum. I've not yet published a release and would appreciate the help of anyone interested in contributing in cherry picking appropriate commits so that we can move forward. I've set up travis-ci but it is probably better to use github actions at this point.

I can't guarantee that codemix can maintain this fork forever but I will guarantee that if the community steps up and contributes there then we will make sure that we don't get into this same situation where one person is blocking future development again.

Not keeping the “keys” to the project (access to PEG.js website, GitHub, and npm package).

Hello.

I don't know about the website and github access, however,
npm has a process to resolve conflicts on package names.

• https://www.npmjs.com/policies/disputes

So that is one item that can be retrieved.

Who is paying for https://pegjs.org DNS name?
If I understand correctly the domain name will expire in ~1 week so dependent on the grace period
it may be possible to repurchase pegjs.org in 1-2 months.

@bd82 - we cannot dispute this because there is no cause. dmajda chose to give the project to someone who's never done anything, and that person has absconded.

@phpnode - I have a significant modernization of the project underway

@StoneCypher sounds good! Is this on your fork at https://github.com/StoneCypher/pegjs ?

I've contacted the owner of the https://www.npmjs.com/package/peggy package which hasn't been updated in 9 years and they've agreed to give us the name. I've created a new github org and moved the repo here: https://github.com/peggyjs/peggy I'd be happy to add you to the organisation if you'd like?

I would enjoy to join your org.

No, that's not the one I'm talking about; that's just a bugfix fork for the main project. I already have a domain and package name :)

My goals are to modernize the output and editor, to fix a lot of long standing bugs, to radically improve testability, and to fix the enormous !#%%#& binaries I get unnecessarily

You can dispute whatever you want with npm, they are usually very helpful, you don't need "cause" to contact support over package ownership, it's not a legal proceeding

The NPM people have clear guidelines on when a repo can be contested, and this unfortunately does not fit.

Listen, think about it. If every time a repo went dark, any rando could come take it over, you'd be looking at an extreme security nightmare, where any time someone wanted to attack people, they'd just pick some random supporting library that was cold and be like "I want to be the new maintainer"

Their process is for things like abuse, trademark control, and things of that nature

if you say it's useless before trying that's fine guy. I don't care. I've had luck talking to them about conflicts and they have been very helpful without it having anything to do with trademark issues or things of that nature, if @dmajda would like to try, it's just firing off an email. The worst case is they say no and you lost 5min of time.

The npm name disputes policy explicity states that the process may be used to:

Adopt an "abandoned" package

• https://www.npmjs.com/policies/disputes

I would recommend attempting this process, there is enough proof that the package has been abandoned...

maybe

i'm actually really concerned now that I see bd82's note that the domain's about to expire. That could be catastrophic

@futagoza , please let one of us fix this. It's been years

Hi, have been watching this conversation for a while. I don't care what pegjs is called, it will be awesome to see it actively maintained, there are no parsers as easy to use.

Regarding the domain, it was renewed but it was probably an automatic thing from looking at the created date. I'm not sure how the expiration would have been catastrophic? I would say it being renewed is a worse problem.

It's because we don't want to lose the SEO. Twelve years of rank. What a nightmare.

I've acquired pegjs.com . If you guys could set your fork up for that, we can sitemap it, and Google can have a fallback ready.

I've had luck talking to them about conflicts and they have been very helpful without it having anything to do with trademark issues or things of that nature, if @dmajda would like to try, it's just firing off an email. The worst case is they say no and you lost 5min of time.

I’m sorry, but I won’t contact npm support regarding package dispute. I feel this is not something up to me, but up to the community interested in developing PEG.js further. If such community forms (and judging by the comments above I think it is forming already), it should be its members who try to get the rights, not me. And if it doesn’t form, it makes no sense to get the rights.

More importantly, I think if makes no sense to get the package rights and still not own the GitHub organization and website. This would only lead to confusion for users. I would strongly encourage the community to start with a new, previously unused name.

It's because we don't want to lose the SEO. Twelve _years_ of rank. What a nightmare.

This is _exactly_ the reason why I think it makes no sense to continue the development under the name PEG.js while the current website and GitHub organization are up.

There are many examples of well-known projects which forked with a new name. This is a perfectly viable path. The users will learn eventually.

I've acquired pegjs.com . If you guys could set your fork up for that, we can sitemap it, and Google can have a fallback ready.

I’m sorry, but this is exactly the example of confusion I’m talking about. As a user I would wonder what the relation between .org and .com is, maybe thinking whether the latter is some commercial version of PEG.js.

Just think about these issues. Thanks.

More importantly, I think if makes no sense to get the package rights and still not own the GitHub organization and website.

It's not really up to you anymore, David. You bowed out.

If anyone chooses to reach out to NPM, they'll reach out to Github too. They're both Microsoft, and they're both acting under identical policy.

At that point, the website will no longer be pegjs.org, because you gave that website to someone who wouldn't even renew the domain, and you absolutely refuse to talk to them about it, despite that you know that you're the only person he'll listen to.

David, you gave the old domain to someone who's going to scuttle it because he's spent years doing literally nothing, and is either too depressed or lazy to respond at all.

.

This is exactly the reason why I think it makes no sense to continue the development under the name PEG.js while the current website and GitHub organization are up.

David, they're talking about taking the Github org away, and I'm talking about replacing the website, then forking the library under a new name.

The protests you're making are incorrect. We're talking about strategies to work around these things, because we've been asking for your help handling it the way you imagine for a year, and you have steadfastly refused to get involved.

Instead you're holding out for a community to do it, when what the community is actually saying is "we need your help breaking the stranglehold one person has that's keeping the community out."

Because you would not do that, we're literally forced to replace everything you're talking about needing to maintain.

This is a hostile fork, David. It doesn't have to be, but Futagoza is pretending to be a ghost, and you, the only person who can get responses from him, won't ask him to do the common sense right thing

The library name you created? It has to go away now, because you won't help fix the problem

The org you created? It has to go away now, because you won't help fix the problem

The website you created? It has to go away now, because you won't help fix the problem

No community _exists_, because you gave this library to the wrong person, and you won't get involved in his refusal to give it to the community you pretend needs to fix this

.

I've acquired pegjs.com . If you guys could set your fork up for that, we can sitemap it, and Google can have a fallback ready.

I’m sorry, but this is exactly the example of confusion I’m talking about. As a user I would wonder what the relation between .org and .com is, maybe thinking whether the latter is some commercial version of PEG.js.

Nobody thinks .com means commercial. 

We're going to put a big banner at the top that says "the temporary holder of the old domain let it die. This is the free old pegjs from pegjs.org, and we're putting the modern stuff that you can use in modern tooling over here instead."

If you're not willing to help retain the domain, this is the choice we're left with.

You're both saying the community needs to handle it then say "the community isn't handling it right," and also refusing to do
anything yourself

I have thought about these issues extensively, and since you're unwilling to participate, this is the way I'm going to prevent this problem. If you have a better idea, start doing it, or at least tell us what it is.

It is dramatically better for pegjs to have a dot-com than no website at all. Every other piece of JS tooling has a dot-com. This will not confuse anyone.

.

Just think about these issues. Thanks.

We wrote out that this was going to happen a year ago.

This has been well thought through. This is not the first critical library that has disappeared because the author handed it over to the wrong person, then tried to get people with no control to fix it

.

I’m sorry, but I won’t contact npm support regarding package dispute.

You're not being asked to. You aren't involved anymore.

I mean I even offered to pay for it. I offered to pay Futagoza $200 to just register one domain

I also reached out to the registrar to see if I can pay for someone else's domain without taking it over, but I expect a "no" to that

This is 100% because David gave the keys to someone negligent, won't ask for the keys back, and wants people without the keys to stop breaking windows to get inside the house

If you want your old domain name to be recognized, we do too! You have 36 hours to convince Futagoza to get off of his ass

Failing that, we'll stay on .com for about two months, and then it'll be both .com and .org once both re-registration periods have expired

One thing a lot of people forget about domains is that you can't just snap them up after they've expired. The registrar holds them at regular price for two weeks, then at inflated price for six weeks.

That domain's SEO will be completely destroyed at the end of day 4.

At that point, the .org will largely be an historic curiosity.

David, if it makes you feel better, nobody thinks React is commercial despite that it has a .com. Something like half of javascript tools have .coms, and they're nearly all free. I was actually really angry at ExtJS when I learned it was paid; it has a .com

If your question isn't "how do we keep it from going offline," or "how do we retain the seo," but rather "will the TLD confuse people," I guess my opinion is that you're worried about the little problems when there are some really big problems coming

Please consider reaching out to Futagoza and encouraging him to renew the domain. I'll be happy to pay him to get this trivial task done, so that the rest of us don't suffer.

We're all pretty frustrated that you've sat by the sidelines watching this happen for years. You can fix this and the rest of us can't. This is the only thing we can do. You're the only one who can accomplish the strategy you're trying to get us to take.

You have written more to us than it would take to write to Futagoza. Two sentences from you to him in one email, and this is over.

At this point, you've waited so long that even if you did the right thing, he might not see it in time

For that matter, nobody was ever confused into thinking PegJS was a non-profit, either

The actual correct TLD for something like this is .net

There were many examples of well-known projects which forked with a new name. This is a perfectly viable path. The users will learn eventually.

Yes, David, that's what I already said I was doing. I've already paid for 10-year registrations on the domains for the new org and library. I already announced that, in this thread.

But also, they need a place to learn that an option exists, and they need to know that they aren't starting over from scratch.

We are doing a fork. We know how forks work. We understand that you are forcing a fork so that you don't have to send an email.

We are clearing out your org, your website, and your library's name, because someone won't spend $6 and you won't spend two sentences.

However we also understand the damage that's coming, and we're trying to prevent it. Forks cause extreme damage.

The reason you protested "hey, man, sometimes forks don't destroy everything" is that nearly always they do.

The community is trying to put out the five alarm fire. We don't need to be told what fire is. Thanks.

Grab a bucket.

I said in February that I despaired that this was going to be the outcome.

That word "despair" was used strictly correctly. We all saw this coming, we all know what immense damage it's going to cause, we all know it's easy to prevent, but there are only two people who are able to affect the outcome. One doesn't respond and the other one only responds to say "I won't ask for help, the powerless community that's been asking him for a year should do it"

We're two days from the deadline, David. Stop pretending we need to do something. We've done everything that is possible. We've spent a thousand dollars trying to work around your unwillingness to ask Futagoza to do the right thing.

It costs you two $0 to act. We literally cannot take this away from him, and you know that.

The only way any sensible change can happen here is for you to send him an email. That is the only thing that can work that hasn't been tried repeatedly.

Honestly we'll be lucky if we can even capture the domain before a spammer pushing viruses puts up a fake

You're not just letting a website die, David. You're putting your old users at the risk of compromise

This is actually really serious

@StoneCypher Let me make one thing clear: my involvement with PEG.js ended in 2017. I don’t want to get involved again. I created this issue _only_ because moths ago you tagged me multiple times in multiple issues in this repo and then wrote me an email asking for help, which I eventually agreed to, because I felt my word could carry some weight and push things forward. Please don’t make me regret that.

I don’t remember you ever asking me to contact @futagoza directly or help in any way after creating this issue. However, I remember writing me that you won’t ”lean on me again” after I created it. In that regard, I view your multiple accusations as false, your tone as insulting, and your pleas for help as highly inappropriate given all the other things you’ve just thrown at me.

As for me writing to @futagoza, I don’t believe it makes any sense. This is an open source project, things should be resolved in the open, not in private emails. And multiple people apparently already wrote him, so he is likely aware what is going on.

As for the npm package, I only talked about it because @jquense suggested I write to npm support. I just wanted to clarify my view on this.

As for the pegjs.org domain, I misunderstood the comment by @AlansCodeLog to mean the domain was renewed already. Apparently it wasn’t. This makes my point regarding .org vs .com more or less invalid.

Anyway, I guess I’ve been involved in this disucssion more than I should have been, so I am unsubscribing from this issue. Everyone, please don’t take any of my opinions as more than just opinions and feel free to do as you wish.

Good luck!

We need to leave the name behind if we don't control the accounts associated with it, anything less is just too confusing for anyone who doesn't know the background, whereas "this is project is a backwards compatible fork of PEG.js" is easily understandable to anyone already using PEG.js and doesn't matter to anyone who's new to the project.

I'm going to stick with the name "peggy" and proceed with my fork at https://github.com/peggyjs/peggy

Let's not put any more energy in trying to convince @futagoza to do the right thing, hopefully they'll come to their senses eventually and we can become PEG.js again. Until then let's make some progress towards an initial release!

I don’t remember you ever asking me to contact @futagoza directly or help in any way after creating this issue.

I've asked you five times now, @dmajda

I'm going to stick with the name "peggy" and proceed with my fork at https://github.com/peggyjs/peggy

If you want, but letting you know, I've already got a lot of work done, and I'd enjoy your participation, @phpnode. I also hold relevant domains that will mop up most of the relevant SEO, and have a Monarch implementation largely done, plus the direct embedding of most of the tools directly in the IDE.

@StoneCypher I'm keen to see what you've come up with, is this work public anywhere yet and did you fork from the latest release or the latest commit?

My philosophy with the fork is to do a very small initial release using the last known good point as a base, pulling in only a few of the bugfix PRs but nothing that touches the build system or the test rewrite etc. When we're happy with that we'll publish and try and come up with a plan for the bigger goals, but as you said somewhere else - we need to keep releases small, incremental and manageable.

With a codebase like this, which predates a lot of the more modern tooling, it is _very_ tempting to dive in and change quite a lot of stuff in one go. Especially the codegen stuff. I am trying very hard to resist this temptation because I believe this excess ambition is what got @futagoza stuck in the mud for so long. The big problem I have with their work is that so much has changed since the last release that it's difficult to have confidence that everything works as expected and that there aren't massive, terrifying bugs lurking somewhere in part of the codebase that we just don't know about.

It's not public yet because I'm waiting on external project authorization from my employer. I asked for it three days ago when I learned about the domain name problem. Rule of thumb is two weeks but it's the holidays.

I can definitely add you to the org, where you can see the issue tracker and therefore what we plan. Whether you want to make your own or join ours, you're welcome in our group (as is David, as are any of the others.)

That's actually why I asked other people to point their fork at pegjs.com, is that until I have that authorization I actually cannot do it myself, and the domain deadline is before I can practically receive that authorization

@StoneCypher yes please, I'd be happy to be added to the org. I'm hoping we can work together as splitting the community would be really unfortunate.

C'est fantastique. I agree that a splitting would be strongly undesirable, and I really want other people to help. My understanding of David's work is ... modest, at best 😀

I've invited you to six repositories with write access. Please check your email.

The code isn't up yet, pending that authorization. Please look in the issues repository's issue tracker

As for the pegjs.org domain, I misunderstood the comment by @AlansCodeLog to mean the domain was renewed already. Apparently it wasn’t. This makes my point regarding .org vs .com more or less invalid.

It has been renewed (look at the year):

Registry Expiration: 2021-11-28 14:31:06 UTC
Updated: 2020-11-26 01:41:16 UTC
Created: 2014-11-28 14:31:06 UTC

Also, just want to say from my point of view as a user, name, seo, etc, don't really matter in the grand scheme. People who used or are interested in peg.js will eventually stumble onto this issue and find alternatives, if the alternative is good it'll make a name for itself.

Also for those creating forks I would consider carefully using a github fork. Forks do not appear in github search by default (unless they have more stars, quite a high bar to beat). If I search "peg.js" your fork will not appear. On the other hand if you use a regular repo and put "peg.js" in the description it should appear. Also a fork's code cannot be searched from the search bar, and possibly there might be other limitations. I personally think these are more valuable than appearing in the list of forks. Alternatively I think one could keep both a fork (e.g. name/peg-js-fork) and a repo (org/peg-js) in sync, and set the fork to a dummy branch with a notice.

It is a regular repo, for exactly that reason ❤️

I'm glad to see the SEO isn't being destroyed

@StoneCypher - Has there been any movement in opening up the project from your employer?

Yes. I believe I'll have authorization soon.

@StoneCypher monthly ping for status? :)

I got tangled in some corporate details. I think it's almost there. I apologize

In brief PEG.js is dead, reborn as :

• https://github.com/peggyjs/peggy
• And soon @StoneCypher Fork with improvement

And there is also the moo lexer as not so similar alternative like sayed here :
https://github.com/messageformat/messageformat/pull/288

Am I right ?

Peggy also looks more dead than alive.
It looks like @StoneCypher has a real maintained project. So I'm keeping an eye on it.
@futagoza ist alive but ignores everything.
My hope is that he will hand over the project.

moo lexer is nice. But it's not a real alternative if you want to work with "real" grammar. moo is only a lexer. Pegjs is more than a Lexer.
The only alternative I have found is
https://github.com/kach/nearley

Some others:
https://github.com/zaach/jison
https://github.com/harc/ohm

But overall: Pegjs simply is the most stable and fastest library for me.

I'm willing to start helping whichever of @phpnode or @StoneCypher cuts a release of any kind first. It doesn't have to have the final name for me, it just needs to respond to npm install with a non-github checkout.

Its a race!!!

I will release as soon as my employer signs off. 🤷‍♂️

another month passed, any update? @StoneCypher

I basically ran out of time / capacity and I'm not working on anything that needs a parser at this moment sadly, ~so peggy died as soon as it was born, sorry about that :(~

Edit: Peggy is alive!

I basically ran out of time / capacity and I'm not working on anything that needs a parser at this moment sadly, so peggy died as soon as it was born, sorry about that :(

@phpnode Would you be open to someone else taking over the peggy org? I can at least push out a release and start taking PRs if you help hand off the relationship with the owners of the existing peggy package.

@hildjj absolutely, yes please! If you open a/some PRs to the peggy repo I'll add you to the npm package and github org. My github notifications are a horror show so please email me at [email protected] if it takes me more than 24hrs to respond

Trivial but opinionated PR: https://github.com/peggyjs/peggy/pull/3

We just did a pre-release version of peggy, 1.0.0-rc.0. Can a few of you try this out in your existing projects, please? We'll do a full release as soon as we have a few data points.

Peggy rc2 is up on unpkg and jsDelivr. Full 1.0 release expected today.

Peggy v1.0.0 is out. Please start re-opening issues there that you want us to track.

IMO this bug should be closed if this project had a maintainer.

It's not worth a community split and I still don't have the okay from my employer, and Joe is the Web Sequence Diagrams guy, so, I'm just going to close my fork.

LMK if contributions are welcome, especially regarding typescript, automation, and reducing output size